So where DID B&M get those mandrels?


[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ TubeNet BBS ] [ FAQ ]

Posted by Rick Denney on August 11, 2000 at 14:46:17:

I've spent some time carving divots in the archives, based on a conversation I had with Dale Phelps. And I'd like to review some comments made in the past and revisit them, if possible.

My purpose: I'm trying to find out what is known about the production of American-style instruments by Bohm and Meinl following the war. It seems to me that some of the most revered instruments in Tubadom are surrounded by unnecessary mystery, mostly because nobody ever wrote anything down. I'd like to do some of that writing before any more time passes and any more sources are lost. But I have few sources of my own, and it would take the combined efforts of many of us to answer these questions usefully.

Brian Fredericksen says in Song and Wind, and in this forum, that the mandrels for Yorks were never delivered to Germany, and were scrapped at least by 1971. I believe him, but I wonder if the statement only applies to the 6/4 Chicago York which gets so much attention. He mentioned confirming this with Floyd Cooley, but again I wonder if Floyd's sole focus was the big instrument. Might Carl Fischer have sent tooling for smaller, more supposedly commercial, instruments to Geretsreid following the war?

Numerous discussions of Bohm and Meinl, particularly in reference to Marzan's designs, hinted that B&M used York mandrels for "smaller" horns in production of York Masters, which formed the basis of the Marzan design. In comparing the few pictures I've seen of Marzan horns with my own York Master, this seems beyond plausible. They are so similar that it seems implausible that they are not based on the same tooling.

I've asked this question of several people in several ways, and get conflicting answers. Mr. Nirschl, for example, told me that he was entirely too young to know first-hand what B&M was up to in the 50's and 60's. I appreciated his humor, and his coyness! But I'm hoping to do a little better in terms of real information.

Bohm and Meinl lists at least the BBb incarnation of this horn as late as 1992 or '93--right up to and perhaps beyond the time when Nirschl acquired the factory. The Tuba Source Book, for example, shows this instrument in a line-up of mostly rotary instruments. Nirschl tubas were listed separately; I don't think this listing was a Nirschl. I haven't confirmed this with Lee, but I suspect this chapter was written no later than '93.

Carl Fischer (who owned York and who imported them from B&M in the 50's and 60's) has maintained no memory of musical instruments.

The current Nirschl 4/4 bears strong resemblance to the old York Master, except that it uses the 6/4 York-copied valve body with the vertical rather than angled valve arrangement.

On the assumption that documentation is unavailable, I'd like to go back to the actual instruments to make good guesses about the truth. So, I'm propose to assemble a database, including:

- Pictures. I'd like to compile a photographic library of horns, starting with true pre-war 4/4 York BBb's with front-action valves and upright bells, and including similar post-war York Masters, Bohm and Meinls, Marzans, and Nirschls, plus any other labels that I'm missing that were supposedly made in that factory. I'd like to normalize the photos based on the known dimensions of bell diameter and body length to get them to approximately the same scale, and then I'll post them on a web page. The pictures should be taken with a normal lens (neither wide angle nor telephoto) aimed right down the valve casings. That should give the same perspective for all photos. But I'll work with any photos.

- Measurements. If I can get hold of some pertinent measurements, such as the circumference (measure with a cloth tape) of the outer branches every foot starting at the bell and including at least the bottom bow, I can perform some detailed comparisons of the bell and bottom-bow design.

- Provenance. The history of the horn: When it was bought new, and what has happened to it since then. Whatever you know to be true.

- Labeling. What the engraving says, and any serial number (though mine has no serial number that I've been able to find).

The York database that exists in cyberspace is limited in usefulness, because without pictures it is almost impossible to align and particular instrument with the database. Also, that database is concerned with the York Band Instrument Company in its various incarnations, and focuses on pre-war Grand Rapids horns. I'm more interested in the post-war Bohm and Meinl horns. Also, I'm not interested in the 6/4 horns, but in the 4/4-5/4 instruments.

So, if you own such an instrument, or know somebody who does and would provide the information, let me know what you think of this plan and whether you'd like to participate. All participants will get credit, of course.

I'm also posting this on TubaEuph.

Rick "Thanks" Denney


Follow Ups: