Posted by Rick Denney on March 07, 2003 at 14:04:12:
In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: King 2341 Info Needed posted by Todd W. White on March 07, 2003 at 00:13:52:
With all due respect, you seem to be looking for ways to be insulted. I don't believe my response contained any sarcasm, and I was defending my comments, not insulting you.
By the way, Tubenet accepts HTML tags, which is why you see bold and italic so frequently in posts.
1. I worship God, too, but one can worship something without placing it before God, thus avoiding a problem with the first commandment. (Initially) unqualified praise of a particular tuba, and a sharp response seemingly full of indignation when a mild debate is offered, is surely a sign of worship. I'm sorry if I misread the signs.
2. If they don't require adjustments, then they are perfectly in tune. Isn't that the definition? Unfortunately, the groups I play in require adjustments. A reachable first-valve slide is a useful tool therefore, even on instruments that "don't require adjustments."
3. I have not dated all the 1241's and 2341's (old style) that I have played over the years. Some were excellent (as I have said now several times). None were as good as the best of the new-style 2341's that I have played. I don't usually look up dates on the horns that I play unless I intend to buy them or have some other reason to. As I've said before, the best 1241 I've played is now owned by my wife's uncle, and that one was made in the early 50's.
4. When did they stop making the 1241's in lieu of the old-style 2341's? I thought all the instruments made after the merger with Conn were 2341's, but my lore is weak on that subject.
5. See 3.
6. I'm glad we agree.
7. Yes, I'm aware of some of the relationships concerning bell size, and, in fact, Ken Sloan and I spent some time discussing just that subject in my living room last night. It may be that changes in the shape of the bell can be accounted for by changes in the leadpipe. Ken was enlightening me to the concept of a dual, where the profile of one instrument is the dual, or negative, of the other. At each point in the bugle, it has the opposite taper (taken as the percentage rate of change in diameter). If you take a typical tall, narrow bell tuba, and plot the dual, which has the opposite taper rate, you get a wide-belled taper design. The point of the exercise is that apparently both tube designs will yield exactly the same harmonic pitches, though with a different mix of harmonics and therefore a different timbre--they'll both play in tune equally (good or bad). It may be, therefore, that a wide bell corresponds to a particular leadpipe shape, and a tall bell to another leadpipe shape, and the best examples of each reflect optimization on that approach. Neither of us have moved this thinking at all beyond an interesting graph in one of his acoustics books, but it's an intriguing concept. If it turns out to be true, then it may be possible to accommodate a particular bell design with a compatible leadpipe.
But the proof of the pudding is in the tasting, and the best of the new 2341's are wonderful instruments. The worst of them are not nearly as good as that early-50's 1241. Perhaps your sample of the new ones was as skewed is you fear was my sample of the old ones. The good ones have excellent intonation.
One of the things I liked best about his old 1241 is the physical resonance of the instrument, and I'll pass along your info to my wife's uncle, who will be glad to add it to his store of knowledge about the instrument. I have to say that it also has that resonance with the forward bell that I got from a supplier, onto which I soldered a new bell ring. Perhaps I got lucky.
Rick "who offers the below as a bit of sarcasm in good humor" Denney
Section Leader, Loudoun Symphonic Winds
Tuba, Loudoun Brass Quintet
(formerly...)
Tuba, Town North Concert Band
Tuba, Plano Community Band
Tuba, Heritage Brass
Alternate Tuba, Mesquite Symphony
Tuba, White Rock Brass Quintet
Tuba, San Antonio Municipal Band
Tuba, Sons of Hermann Band
Founding member, The TubaMeisters
Tuba, The Community Symphony (Austin)
Tuba, Austin Symphonic Band
Tuba, Texas A&M Symphonic Band
Section Leader, Robert E. Lee High School Band (Houston)
(You get the idea--credentials have to be used with care, because despite the above, I'm still just a second-rate amateur.)